More seriously this time:

[shirenomad]

There were some flyers up this past week on campus for a "Women's Law" event. My first instinct, on seeing those words as the headline, was that I would be unwelcome if I attended. It's for women. I am not a woman.

The event, upon closer investigation of the flyer, was about sexual assault law. Which is just as important for men. Some men (hopefully no one on campus) assault. Some men are even assaulted. Men are sometimes the one prosecuting or defending the assaulters, or sitting in judgment over them on the bench. And it's unlikely that men will ever drop below 50% of the legislators that could improve the law on the subject. In short, it's something men have an influence on and need to hear about. Why would you want to label such an important and universal topic with an exclusive label? Why would you dismiss, even subconsciously, 50% of the population from learning more on the subject? They could have led with "Law of Sexual Assault." Or "How Our Law Fails to Prevent Sexual Assault" if they wanted to be challenging. They didn't. Why?

It's for reasons like these that I want to strike this category of terms from the English language: "Feminist." "Gay Rights." "Black Pride." All of these name a specific group, and the instinctive reaction is that the members of that group are the only ones who are welcome to contribute their voice to the cause. We have groups for all of them on campus; am I going to sign up for any of them? No. Am I going to attend any of their events? If they lead their advertisements with the group name instead of the topic, very unlikely. I'll grant that the groups also serve the social purpose of letting people with similar social upbringings meet and network -- especially true for the Christian, Muslim, and Jewish orgs who can debate the more personal issue of how their faith will influence their career. But when it comes to subjects and causes that everyone should be thinking about, why be exclusive?

I'm for Equality. I'm for Equal Justice. I'm for Human Rights, Sentient Pride. Give me a group for that. Don't isolate yourself from me. Don't talk like your particular brand of equality can somehow be divided off from the others, or that only you can appreciate it. What's important is that everyone treat everyone with respect.

Comments

[pretzelcoatl.livejournal.com]

...But the reason that they use the terms like the ones you mentioned isn't to make one group seem better than the other. It's to make a group which calls to attention the fact that those groups did face discrimination, and are still facing discrimination. It's not "exclusive."

I know it seems hard to understand, but you really don't understand until you start listening to the things that the groups of people you mentioned go through. And while it's nothing as severe as it was in the past -- women can vote, restrooms aren't segregated, people are more open to others coming out of the closet -- the prejudice and "Othering" is still common. People still assume the the "ordinary experience" is something that everyone goes through, and it isn't. The reason those terms are used are to promote understanding, not division.

And yes, of course, there are radical members of each of those groups, but that doesn't mean every feminist/black pride/gay pride person agrees with them. The problem is not in the person, but in society. I don't feel ashamed of being white, being male, or being straight, but I am ashamed if I get preferential treatment for being any of those. And yes, I have, and yes, it bothers me.

(As for the Women's Law thing, did you look into it at all? Just because you think you wouldn't be welcome, that doesn't mean you won't. Sexual assault is something that does happen to men, but it's more prevalent against women, and having more men aware of it can help prevent it, both from being perpetrators and being victims.)

[theotherbaldwin.livejournal.com]

Well, god damn.

Just my luck for Pretz L'Coatal to say it better than I could. Pretend I said this, too.

[shirenomad]

"Just because you think you wouldn't be welcome, that doesn't mean you won't."

I realize that. That wasn't my point. My point was that my first instinct was "it's not for me," and if I hadn't looked closer, that instinct would have remained. And someone who's just a little chauvinist still is going to avoid it, where he might have shown up for something that wasn't as apparently exclusive and learned something.

So again, why lead with a segregating label, when you could be leading with "Equality" and opening encouraging everyone? Spend specific meetings on oppression against a particular race/gender/creed/orientation if you like, but the overall goal of any such group should be to reach those who are borderline and draw them in.

It took us 60 years to overturn segregation, but it was important to do so, because it exposed the sides to each other and helped people realize "hey, you're not so different." Why turn our backs on that?

[pretzelcoatl.livejournal.com]

It took us 60 years to overturn segregation, but it was important to do so, because it exposed the sides to each other and helped people realize "hey, you're not so different." Why turn our backs on that?

But do we have to diminish the differences we do have? A woman has her own views about how it means to be a woman, so I'm not going to tell her how she should live. (See also: Experiences of female family/friends being told "women can't do math," "women shouldn't play video games," "you're going to have kids aren't you?," "don't eat too much or you'll get fat," etc.)

I haven't run into many cases where someone a different skin color, gender, or sexual orientation as me views their difference as making them better. They just want to express that they are that way and they should be proud of it, and part of the way of doing that for some people is to meet with other people like them and talk about what they're dealing with. It's a way to just take a break from people asking you awkward questions (like "Oh, where do you come from?" "Virginia." "No, where are you from?").

If we were all starting on the same page, there probably wouldn't be any need to have groups to talk about pride since, well, everyone would feel okay just being themselves! But unfortunately, that's not the case, and even more unfortunately for someone like me, it's subtle and sometimes I realize a question might be more offensive than I think. I shouldn't have to expect them to just deal with it; I should just apologize and try to understand. (If you want a good example of this in blatant terms? Just listen to X-Box Live at some point. Yeesh.)

tl;dr. Really, it just comes down to respect, and finding a way to respect yourself as how you were born, without feeling like someone is intruding in on you.

[shirenomad]

"women can't do math," "women shouldn't play video games," "you're going to have kids aren't you?," "don't eat too much or you'll get fat."

You do realize you just named supposed differences between women and men, right? So yes, very much I would like to diminish the supposed differences we have.

More generally, I admit this may be a personal flaw, but I have the easiest time respecting someone when I think of them not as another race, not as female, not as gay, but as a human being.

[pretzelcoatl.livejournal.com]

So yes, very much I would like to diminish the supposed differences we have.

But that's my point. These people keep on hearing those comments, and they get sick of them. Even when they tell someone "Hey, that's offensive," they get told in return "Oh, that's just how so and so is." or "You need to stop being offended so easily."

...but I have the easiest time respecting someone when I think of them not as another race, not as female, not as gay, but as a human being.

Then think of them as both?

[shirenomad]

Even when they tell someone "Hey, that's offensive," they get told in return "Oh, that's just how so and so is."

It is indeed offensive, but I'm not seeing how promoting the idea that women are generally different will decrease the number of comments. To the contrary, each of these comments start with the belief that "women are different, act differently... here are some ways how. That's how it is."

I think we're going over each other's heads here, but I'm not sure at what stage. Maybe we have different things we think of when we say "different"?

[pretzelcoatl.livejournal.com]

No, I think we're on the same page, but the thing is this: Just because a person is different in some way (be it gender, race, sexuality, physical/mental capability, etc.), they should not be treated as if their difference makes them a more worthy human being than someone who is "normal." Groups like the ones we've been discussing meet together to basically say "I am a woman, and I have experienced people treating me in a disrespectful way because I am a woman."

It's a way to feel some type of solidarity after feeling like an outsider for most of your life, and a way to empower yourself to not let the people who use your differences as a way to make you feel inferior to them.